Roster Depth, Tag Teams and Star Making

In this episode three topics are discussed. Chay's topic covers overall roster depth in AEW and WWE. Brooks discusses the current tag team scene in WWE and where can they go after the releases. Ryan brings up the makings of a star and how any talent could potentially be chosen. This was a fun one, enjoy!

Thank you for listening to our podcast!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

What's up guys? Welcome back to the Three Stages of Marks podcast. I'm Shay. I'm here with Brooks and I'm here with Ryan. This is episode 22. What's up, guys?

SPEAKER_03 0:25

Hello, hello. How's it going? What's up, everybody?

SPEAKER_00 0:30

As well, you know. I guess they're on the other end saying, what's up? What's up? But um, but yeah, we're back uh with another week. And if you guys are new to the podcast, we bring three topics per week. So one of us each will choose one topic, and then we'll kind of discuss, go over, you know, have some fun, and and that's how we do it. So last week I started, and we I know last week we covered like King of the Ring, and I can't remember what Ryan was like fussing about last week. What were you fussing about last week?

SPEAKER_03 1:12

Just you know, WWE spamming retirement matches and all that baloney.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Yeah, yeah, all that good stuff. Well, this week we're starting with Brooks, and I think uh he has something to speak on about the uh tag team division. So what do you got?

SPEAKER_01 1:28

All right, we're gonna talk about how WWE's tag team division is super lacking, and there was a report that came out that they want to ulcer the tag team division. So we're gonna talk about ways they could do that, how they got in the position they're in from releasing so many tag teams, and see what we think they could do to actually help the tag division. Um start with talking about how they just recently released the machine guns and the Wyatt's, uh, which took out two former tag champions pretty quickly there together. Um they seem to have a problem where a good amount of their tag teams are in stables, so they don't really fight for the tag titles much because they're too busy doing whatever else. Or when they do have teams in the tag to hunt, there's makeshift teams, priest and truth being a big example. Um so I guess like who is there any teams out there that you guys think would be a good uh bolster to the tag division?

SPEAKER_00 2:34

I'm gonna say no. Big, big no. Because I don't think that they have the ability to use tag teams in a meaningful way anymore. And I remember way back when, when Vince was in charge, and this may have been right around 2002, like when the first draft happened. Remember, he split APA and he split the Dudleys, um, and that but then he turned around and made up like makeshift tag teams like Edge and Mysterio uh and like Benwan Angle, who had really good chemistry, but his mentality was that instead of having tag teams, we could split them into two and have two singles matches and kind of get more out of them instead of just having four guys in one match. And I always hated that, and I feel like that's what they do today, right? You have a bunch of uh tag teams, you know, sitting backstage doing nothing, and when you do see them, most of the time they're in singles matches, and then it kind of sucks.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Or we see them like Praxium forever. The only reason that they were being used was to put the MFTs over as a group. Where when they are actually used as a team, it's only because they're in a two vs four or two vs five situation.

SPEAKER_03 4:12

I was gonna I was gonna mention Fraxium. They have so much good chemistry. They're like so I don't this the tag team chemistry is good. We don't see tag teams like that now. At least in WWE that just have that chemistry. I wish I wish instead of like putting the titles on the machine guns, put it on Fraxium at one point, but Fraxium hasn't had that push. And I don't even know where to even start with this because we haven't had any tag teams really come out of NXT, if you think about it, any like to help the roster, because back in the day we had like FTR came out of NXT and they helped the tag team division or Cass and Enzo for a little bit, or um it was American Alpha The Prophet. So I mean the Profits are still kind of together after 10 years, and what was it? Uh Gable and uh Jason Jordan, what were they called? American Made or American? Was it American Maid? American Alpha. Something American Alpha. Something American. But we don't really have that many because a lot of the NXT tag teams they either get broke they either get broken up or they get released before they even get a main roster push.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

That's just looking at the NXT tag division now. There's OTM, Hank and Tank, Noam, and Romeo. And then they're a tag team. Yeah, they're definitely a tag team now. Um and then there's Stables, you know, Vanity Project, Darkstate, Cullen, which I guess Cullen's only down to two guys, but still it's it's it seems like they skip over the tags and straight into groups and don't focus too much on the tags when they still have like the Creeds, Fenaraxium, the Prophets, the War Raiders, Alpha Academy, uh Los Americanas. They've got teams that they could use. But I guess there's outside of the Usos, none of them are drawing anything.

SPEAKER_03 6:14

So I I do like the faction what they do with the factions that's what New Japan does. They have all these factions in New Japan, but they do set up lots of tag teams. They do also have a lot of solid tag teams in New Japan. So I like the the the way they go with the factions, they just don't capitalize correctly. Right. Or at least build some tag teams within those factions.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Right.

SPEAKER_03 6:37

Many projects has a lot of potential.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

They do if they can get to the main roster and people can get past their size, because they are all small. Um, but back to the New Japan thing. Look at the Bullet Club. At one point they had Gallows and Anderson and the Bucks, and both teams were really successful. And Gorilla's a destiny.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

And Gorilla's a destiny.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Okay, so all three teams really successful as tag teams while still being in a stable. So there are rumors that Enzo and Cass may come back. Um Enzo's been at the PC. Cass, I believe they said his contract expires sometime this month to the end of the month.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Well, you know why they're doing that.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

I mean, yeah, that's more of a they're gonna sell merch, and that's TKO's main thing at this point. If you can look at their signings that they've had recently with Ethan Page and Danhausen and Cardona, they're popular. They may not be the best in-ring workers, which I I think Ethan Page is very good in-ring, but they're gonna sell merch. They've got a connection with the fans to sell merch, and that's why they bring those guys in.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

They're gonna not only sell merch, but they have a catchphrase that the crowd can chant and just makes the atmosphere look like it's super cool.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Yeah, you know it. Um another potential tag team I've heard brought up was Baron Corbin and Dijak. They've been teaming as the skyscrapers and MLW. Um it sounds like Corbin is coming either way. It's just whether or not they bring Dijak with him to be a tag team. Um both those teams I feel like could help put on tag or good tag matches if WWE actually books tag team matches.

SPEAKER_03 8:39

I I just want to know what's the point of bringing in all these former guys after all these guys have been released at some point. I understand a lot of them get released and work their way back, but what's the point of just releasing so many tag teams just to like, oh, we gotta build our tag team division again? Well, no shit. You just released over half the tag team division in one swoop.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

I mean, I didn't even mention New Day leaving. Yeah, New Day. Them and the Usos were the tag division for a decade. Yeah. They they released my tribal chief Tongaloa to arrest Tongaloa without ever really using the Gorillas of Destiny as a tag team.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

We didn't ever uh We didn't get Gorillas of Destiny and Usos, that's what I wanted.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Right. How do you have the Gorillas of Destiny there? I know like Tongaloa is iffy in the ring, but you've had them there for what at least two years, and you've never once had a tag team match with them two tagged together. Like it it doesn't make sense to me.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Yeah, that is kind of crazy.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Like it it's it's one thing, like I know they did like six-man tags and eight-man tags and stuff like that, but not a single two-on-two tag team match with those guys there. Missed opportunities. Yep. Um I don't want it to happen, but WWE seems to have a thing for the Good Brothers. There's always the chance that they get brought back.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Again. Yeah, I mean, Gallows could have his fifth signing to WWE. That would be crazy.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

I mean, hey, if you can if you can become a utility guy like that, where they can keep you know signing you back and it or they think you have worth enough to come back multiple times like that, I mean, hey, more power to them.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Right. On top of that, like like if you're not committed to building the tag division, see if you can sign people to three months, six months, something where they come in, they have a run and leave. Because it's gonna boost their indie appearances and it gets what you want to without locking them in for multiple years.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Yeah, I mean that's what I've been saying for the longest. Have like cycles where people come in for a little bit and then they go away, and then you bring somebody else in and then they go away. Understanding you will have your mainstay people, right? And then, of course, fans are gonna complain, well, they're a part-timer, they shouldn't get you know, titles over these people because they're here all the time. Once again, you're never gonna make everybody happy, but it will keep things fresh and nobody's sticking around too long, they can make stories just for that particular time frame is perfect.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

It is. I see and it also helps play into the next topic.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Before we go, there's more um so what changed between last summer and this summer? Because last summer, SmackDown was kind of on fire with tag team wrestling, given it was it was between six teams. I don't remember who all those six teams were. It was the Y its, it was Fraxium, it was pretty deadly, it was DIY.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

No, not pretty deadly.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Yes, it was.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

They were for a little while in that group, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Now they weren't in the ladder match, I understand.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Uh but they should have been. The Garzas? Think they were heavy in the tags in that.

SPEAKER_03 12:41

Um, I know on Drada and Ray were in the SummerSlam ladder match.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Uh yes, they were.

SPEAKER_03 12:47

They were.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

Was it DIY too?

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Yes. Yeah. Okay. And that's and that's another thing. When you look at the tag teams, you've got Pinta and Phoenix right there. I know Penta's enjoying his singles run, but you've got a team ready to go right there, and you can't tell me the fans don't want to see them versus the Usos.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Or them versus the Prophets. So it's like you've you've got an option right there, readily available.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

I wonder if they're saving that for like a bigger show, like a big moment.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

I'm sure they are, but then they used it at triple A.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Well well, fair.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Fair.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Yeah. I don't know. Um I I don't think teams are a priority at all.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Another team that more than likely is going to be back sooner than later, whether they're signed or whether they're just used, is the Hardies. It's gonna happen. But unfortunately, when you if you bring them into this current division, who are they gonna wrestle? Like them versus Fraxy would be cool, but didn't that kind of already happen? Well, they do that in NXT.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Well, what's gonna happen is Matt Hardy is gonna become broken, Matt Hardy.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Which he which he has done on TNA right now, right? And and Willow is back as well. Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

And he's gonna wind up going into some feud with some singles wrestler, and then Jeff Hardy's gonna become the plus one, and it's not gonna be the Hardy's, it's gonna be Matt Hardy and Jeff Hardy in just these random stories where they can come together when they need to, but they're gonna wrestle as singles competitors. They do it every time.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

I guess it depends on how they bring them back, though. If it's if they actually sign them, yes, there's a good chance that's what it's gonna be. If it's they're on loan from TNA, I don't think they're gonna bring them in without using them specifically as a tag team.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

That's fair.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

They can always bring in your favorites, the Andersons. I know you love them so much.

SPEAKER_03 15:02

The Andersons, they were just they were just having an indie show here last Friday. I almost went to it, but I said, nah.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

You were going just for them?

SPEAKER_03 15:12

No, I was gonna go. I was actually gonna go for Mance Warner and Eric Young, but that was uh I said the Ascension are still out there somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Oh jeez, forgot about these guys. Connor's still wrestling pretty heavy. Victor's not doing as much anymore.

SPEAKER_03 15:28

I think Victor's I I don't know what Victor's doing. I think he might be hurt or I don't know, maybe retired. Who knows?

unknown 15:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Alright. Shall we move on? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I'm up next. So my topic this week is roster size. And what I was thinking last week is that AW has a massive roster of stars, right? And some of them stay on Ring of Honor, some of them don't. But then you also have a group of guys who wrestle more often, a group of men and women who wrestle more often on collision, and then you have your group that wrestle more on dynamite, but there is no split there, right? Everybody's just kind of mixed in there, and then on the WWE side, you have your raw roster, and then you have your SmackDown roster, but of course you have your NXT roster as well. They mix a little bit in there on SmackDown. NXT doesn't mix in as much, but then you have your you know Evolve roster as well. Both companies just have massive rosters. So I wanted to kind of talk about how large of a roster is too large, and what are the benefits of having a large roster? Like what is what does roster depth mean in 2026?

SPEAKER_03 17:14

That's my more m I I say gives you more variety. I mean in theory, if you actually book variety. Yeah. But in say like you're given like a hundred guys for a roster and you want to split and you have two shows, split the roster. Yeah, 50 and 50. That's a it might be a lot of guys for or guys and gals for a roster, but it gives you variety, and we're not getting the same matches over and over again. Because a lot of people, it's it gets boring after all when we're seeing the same people one-on-one or the same tag teams two on two, or it gives you more variety, and you should be able to book better around a an in-depth in-depth roster.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

So that's kind of one of my complaints about WWE right now, is that because they have like a hard split for most of the roster, we wind up seeing the same matches over and over again. Like Raquel Rodriguez and Eo Sky, for example, that we're about to see again on Monday. It's like, but then on the SmackDown side, like before uh let me try and find a perfect time. Like when Jade was was champion, before Rhea Ripley came over to uh SmackDown, and whenever they wanted, you know, to put Jade over somebody, they only had Mee Chin, they only had B Fab. Like, how many times can you put her over the same women and call it effective?

SPEAKER_03 19:00

And they they had Jordan Grace and uh was it Jordan Grace and or somebody else, and they all didn't they all get hurt or something? Someone got hurt.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Jordan Grace got hurt and Chelsea got hurt around the same time. Um Dewdrop, whatever her actual name is. She got hurt.

SPEAKER_03 19:26

Um people people getting hurt does affect like does affect um some of those cases.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

So you so you ideally you want a big enough roster where if a couple people go down, you've got people to step up.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

But I but then also you don't want a big enough roster where alright, I've got plans for these people, I don't have plans for these people, and they're gonna be sitting and catering for six months.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

But so it's like finding finding that sweet spot seems to be hard for but even if you have people that go down, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:02

And you have let's say three women on SmackDown that might be hurt, okay, then why can't you move somebody over to the other show from from Raw? Right. And work them into the storylines, because you have some women over there who aren't being used as much as well. So yeah, I don't know. So I mean, clearly there's benefits to having a deep roster, right? Because you can you can kind of swap people in, you know, swap people out when you need to. Uh, you know, both companies have quite a bit of championships to kind of toss around and put on all these different wrestlers, but does it mean anything when people don't see your talent as credible? I remember you mentioned last week when we were talking about topics. Like, what what does it matter if your wrestlers aren't um seen as stars? If they can't step into the shoes of the guy before them, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

Uh I mean, I mean, there's there's like use B Fab as an example. I mean, she's on the roster. Is she going to break through and do anything? No. Or Ivy Nile, she's just kind of there as well. Um, so it's not enough, like they're not enough depth to step in because they're not gonna break through, even though Ivy is a hell of a wrestler. She's just not gonna connect. Um so it makes it hard to to you know, keep a limited roster or build a deep enough roster when some of the people are just not going to be able to step up to the plate. Um injuries obviously don't help. Pregnancies in Bianca's case don't help. And Naomi. Yeah, I mean that's two big pieces of the roster that are both out with pregnancies.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

So my my issues with heels in WWE right now is that I feel like they expect all heels to fill a certain mold. Right. So not every heel is going to be this great talker on the mic. Uh not every heel is going to be uh this great in-ring worker, but you have some that are better in the ring than others, you have some that are better on the mic than others, you have some that are more charismatic than others, so and you and you know that, right? Because these are the the men and women that you've kind of brought up through your system. So why can't you just use those wrestlers to their strengths and just let it be? Like Ivy Nile, for example. Like we know Ivy's not strong on the microphone, but we know that Ivy is super solid in the ring. Like we know like where she should be, you know, in the peck and order. She might not ever reach the top tier, but she can definitely be a really solid like mid-card talent, along with the Creed brothers who came up from NXT and have basically done nothing. Like, how long do they have to wait to get their turn?

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Right. I also feel like it depends on who they're booked against as well. Um, because if you have like an Ivy Nile versus I don't know, we'll go with Tiffy. Just throw one out there. Um you know WWE loves to do the promo segments, and they don't seem to want to match it up to where you've got one that's good on the mic and one that's not. They want the uh pairing of people that can go back and forth. So I think that's where it hurts. You the in-ring talent should be enough to get you booked, but it's not for for a WWE purpose. AEW, they have no problem sending people out there that can't talk because they just want to put on the best match.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Too much yapping.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Yes. But then you also have talents. I'm gonna bring her name up like I did last uh week. Chelsea Green. She can do whatever you want her to do in the ring, she can do whatever you want her to do on the mic, and you are gonna keep her as a low mid-carter without giving her any push.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Like, Ivy Nile should be out there just choking people out.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Let her be a silent assassin, let her be like uh Shana Basler was. Basler didn't have to talk.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

She could when she needed to, but she didn't have to.

SPEAKER_03 25:06

Oh, I was gonna touch on like since we're talking about like the women's division, and I guess it's still on topic with the roster size. Last at the beginning of last year, in like in NXT, they had like rock uh Roxanne Perez, Cora Jade, it was a Julia Stephanie. Um, it could be missing a name or two, but then they had Bailey on NXT for a couple weeks too. I'm not sure if you guys remember that little stint Bailey had in NXT. And it's like they were you know priming them up, getting them ready for all for the main roster, and now it's like Julia isn't big. Stephanie's lost her momentum, she's also hurt right now. Um, Roxanne is just taking the back seat to Raquel and Liv. Cora Jade is in TNA, she got released and went to TNA. So, what is there to be doing wrong with that?

SPEAKER_01 25:58

I mean, another part of that is by putting three women in a stable, three women that could all compete towards the top of the card with Liv, Raquel, and Roxanne, you're limiting what they can do. Eventually that's gotta break up, and you're gonna get semi-fresher feuds between those three. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

So then I so then I hop over to the AW side of things, right? And we know that they have a uh completely like bloated roster. But but I actually prefer their open, I guess their open concept, uh, more so than I do on the WE side, because they can just like kind of just toss anybody out there. And and I know they announce all their matches like ahead of time, so you know what's coming, but it feels like things feel so much more fresher uh on that side because they do kind of plug and play with a lot of their uh talents. Like it's not like you know that Rhea Ripley is always going to get like the feature match because she's like the top like female in the company. Um it doesn't feel that way on the AW side, right? Like you can have Kyle Fletcher, you know, working against Darby Allen one week, and then he can be working against like a lower name like Roderick Strong the next week, but you know that both matches are going to be like really strong matches, right? Whether it's somebody at the top versus somebody at the bottom. Now, sometimes they go way too far on the 50-50 matches, uh, but I feel like that helps with credibility when you want to have those competitive matches. It's not like a like a complete squash uh for most wrestlers. It's like most wrestlers can go. Um, they can push the the larger names to the limit, and and I'm I'm growing to like that a lot more now that I kind of think about wrestling way deeper than I should as an adult.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

That mostly comes to down to the difference in booking styles between the two companies.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Well, AEW wants to put on the best matches each week. Whether it makes any sense like story-wise, doesn't always matter. Sometimes it does, but for the most part, at least one or two matches each week is going to be solely for putting on a good match in the ring. While WWE seems to think only about the storyline and then runs the same matches over and over because that's what the story is calling for, um, in their opinion.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

Well, I wish that they were a little bit deeper in their story, their storytelling. Because last week's the start of SmackDown last week, I was like, this is so like elementary with Gunther and and Cody and somebody else was in there, but I was like, this is like the most basic of opening.

SPEAKER_03 29:12

Oh Royce Keys.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Like the most basic opening I've ever seen. It was like, what is this? But anyway.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

But they also I think that the reason behind that for the most part is they're not booking for the wrestling fan, the big wrestling fan like us. They're booking so that some random person could be changing the channel and land on the on the episode and pick up exactly what's happening and move forward without having to know any background. While AEW is like, we're gonna put on the most exciting thing we can that hopefully keeps the eyes that way.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

Join Club WWE. No real for the real fans.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

For the real fans, yeah. I'm I will not. I refuse. I joined.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

I bet you did, you mark. Oh no, I mean I signed up too. Of course I did. Of course I did. Like I am I am a huge fan. I complain, but I'm I'm a huge fan. We'll see when they actually open it up to people, like what it's gonna look like and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

But I mean, I I can be honest and say I have not sat down and watched a full wrestling show since the WWE cuts. Since they released my tribal chief. I've not done it. I've watched some matches, I've watched bits and pieces to know what's going on, but I haven't sat and watched through an entire show.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

So if they bring him back, will you start watching again?

SPEAKER_01 30:47

Oh hell yeah. That's my tribal chief. Okay. No, it's it it won't matter if they brought him back or not. It's it's just depend it's I guess as a wrestling fan that's been watching for 30 years, it gets to a point where like in WWE's case, like you were saying with the stories, I know what's happening each week without having to watch it. It's the the segments being the way they are and the matches being on repeat, I could tell you I could tell you tomorrow, once the if SmackDown's card was out, I could tell you exactly what was gonna happen on SmackDown without watching it. Because it is predictable.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Not to mention they give you a full 10-minute recap at the start of every show.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Yeah, that's too. But AEW I don't follow it enough to be able to do it that way. But you also can't really miss AEW and know what's going on because, like you said, it's fresh week in terms of what I want to get to. I don't have that kind of time to be keeping up with 57 hours of wrestling each week. Alright, Ryan, you're up.

SPEAKER_03 32:05

We're going to still kind of be on the same subject in a way. We're transitioning a little smooth transition. I wanted to discuss about how W can just pretty much pick anyone and then just put them in a main event spot. Recently, we just had Mason Rook out of nowhere. Nobody knows who he is unless you're that small 1%. Now he's in the main event, he's getting an N he's I'm assuming we'll be getting an NXT title match very soon. I now this is what I do like about the D. As long as they can capitalize right, but they can pretty much pick anyone, give him a heat, like just put him in the main event. You know, they they as long as that person's primed and the they they've they that's the this they're really big company, they're a cornerstone, they have big name, they're big name, so everyone knows Dave is they can pick whoever they want. Right now, their guy's Mason Rook. And I want to know why they screw up with so many people if they think they're ready for the main event spot, like Mason Rook. If if he's if he's ready. I could have I'd probably just butchered that whole entire thing. I like stuttered so much. But you guys get what I'm trying to say. Like D can and pretty much pick any guy, throw him in the main event, give him everything, and that could be the next phase of pro wrestling or wrestling as a whole. I mean, look at look at Danhausen, man. Danhausen was a big name before Dede B. Now with Dede B, he's getting all this publicity. Hell, he's literally the he's pretty much like the second mascot for the New York Knicks. He's everywhere. It's it's great. I mean, that's that's one of the biggest things about W right now. They can they could pick one of one of us to be the next WWE champion. Like, you know what? I'm gonna make sure Mr. Shea here is gonna be the voice of Friday Night SmackDown. He's gonna be the face, he's gonna be the guy.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

I mean, Anche the Spider Silva. So, so I'm gonna counter your your statement here a little bit. Bringing in uh Mason Rook, Will Cruz was what he went by on the indies. Uh he wrestled for Rev Pro, Progress, Noah. Like he was pretty well known on some of the larger indies. And bringing him into NXT works because NXT is the more diehard WWE fans. They're the ones that actually follow the indies a bit more. So it can work in that situation. If they'd have brought him straight to the main roster and done something with the more casual fans, I don't see that he would have gotten like the reaction he's gotten. I don't think he would it would work as well. Danhausen is a kind of an outlier with the fact of yes, he has a big following. When he came out, people were disappointed. And then they gave him a couple weeks and they're like, okay, this guy's entertaining, and then they got behind him. I don't think that that they could just throw anybody to the top of the card on the main roster because of the fan base.

SPEAKER_03 35:35

Well, n well n uh not in the main maybe not in the main roster right now, but like in NXT, they they've been doing it a lot. They'll they'll do it with a lot of guys, and and especially like with Javon Evans, he's getting a big push right now.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

Right.

SPEAKER_03 35:50

They have they have a lot of trust in Javon Evans, they're giving him TV time every single week, they're giving him he did he just went on to the he won won the qualifier, which I wasn't expecting Javon Evans to win the qualifier. But even though he's not like main event, but we could be seeing Javon Evans in the main event at some point.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

It's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03 36:10

But you know what I mean? Like now they have NXT, they're doing using it, they're they've been using it as a developmental. Right. They can literally pick any guy they want, they can pick one of those evolved guys and be like, you know what? I think this guy is could be a main inventor.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

So so I guess that's the beauty of NXT is you could bring in a nobody, you could bring in an indie guy, the NXT crowd, if you go out there and perform, they're gonna get behind you. The the die hard fans. If you come in off the indies and they know you, they're probably gonna get behind you because they're diehard fans. Then those die hard fans translate to the viewing audience on TV that are maybe not so diehard, but it's like, okay, these guys are behind them, there must be something here, and that catches on eventually, which allows them to come to the main roster and catch on. But I feel like if you if you had a casual fan base in NXT and brought in randoms, it would probably get pretty quiet really fast.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

I I think there's two different types of of talents. You have talents that the audience chooses. Yes. Like Javon Evans, right? Or like Sol Ruka, like the audience chose them, right? Like though they they got over, uh, the fans accepted them almost right away, and W doesn't have to do a whole lot with them because the audience is just invested with Mason. I feel like they almost had to put a guy like him forward because the main roster kind of gutted NXT. Yes, right. So you you had to put somebody in there or a few people in there. They needed to make a couple stars like right away. Um, and I think he was one of the talents that got people talking, right? One because of his look, right? Unconventional, you know, different type of guy. That alone, you know, got people on X and Instagram, you know, talking about the way he looks, but he's athletic, he looks like a kid. Same with like Vanity Project, right? They're like, oh, those guys look like they're in high school. Yeah, but you know, that's getting people uh that that's getting the chatter started, and then they put you know, them with the the the female, I don't know her name, right? I can't think of her name right now.

SPEAKER_03 38:34

Oh, um, I just saw Maya Lockwood.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

Yeah, just by her look alone, like that gets Buzz going. So I just feel like they needed to make some stars like quick. And we don't know if they're stars yet, right? They're they're still kind of fresh, so they may not work out, but right now, you know, they're looking pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

Yeah, but again, that I feel like that goes to the type of crowd that NXT has. And specifically Sean and and Albert, uh Matt Bloom, knowing how to connect with that crowd. Knowing, especially when the majority of the NXT crowd are the same faces all the time. You can you can be like, okay, if we give this sort of presentation where this person can do this in the ring, they're gonna semi-connect with these people. Uh Lizzie Rain, when she came in, never heard of her. Like I at least had heard of of uh Rook on the NXT or on the Indies. I had never heard of Lizzie Rain. She came in and people were behind her just off the entrance. Like, but it's again knowing your crowd, knowing your audience, knowing how to present something to get the reaction you want, and then hoping people buy in past that initial reaction.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

True. True.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

But again, when you go to a different city every week and you have families that aren't big wrestling fans, but hey, we can take our kids out to watch wrestling this week, it'll be something fun. They aren't already in the know when you bring somebody like or somebody up, like if Cruz or Rook had come straight up to the main roster, that fan would have been like, no idea who this is. We're just alright, yeah, cool. But but like they can be a casual and be like, I'm gonna get behind Cody because I know who Cody is.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

Yeah, like I watch those um I watch those like Royal Rumble entrance videos. When people just go to the Royal Rumble and then they actually record like the the entrances from the audience, like where they're sitting. And I always look at like people that are in the vicinity, like around them, and like their reactions when a certain wrestler's music hits, and you can just see the disappointment on their face when it's not like a top talent, and they just kind of roll their eyes like oh, or they sit back down real quick, and it's like you can't they're the casuals. Yeah, like you can't have 50 Rhea Ripleys, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Just not how it works, right? I said that's why like to me the the NXT reaction is not a viable look at how these people will do on the main roster.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

What else you got, Ryan?

SPEAKER_01 41:33

Um the mania reactions. Pretty much the same thing. You know it's gonna be the diehard people there. You're not gonna have a casual spending that much money to go to a mania. So it's it's like Raw and SmackDown by themselves on a weekly basis are a whole nother beast than those other instances.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

And what do you think about the lack of live events?

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Um it having the live events is a good way to get the casual fans to know people. The ones that are just gonna show up in their town because it's a cheap thing to do when it was cheap anyways. Um, but a cheap thing to do that week. You know, that's a way to you get to the the talent get to use their personality more, they get to be a little more free, and that's a better way to connect with those casuals that you may not get on TV when you gotta stick to what you're supposed to be doing.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

I wish we they did more live events.

SPEAKER_03 42:40

I miss them.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

I mean it sounds like they're gonna ramp up live events, but also it sounds like a lot of them are gonna be like the current tour overseas or Mexico. I don't know if they're gonna go back to doing mini live events in the states.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Just like allowing the talents to like try new things in front of audiences that aren't on TV. I think it matters.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

I think it it does definitely matter. I think right now with the main roster, the majority of them know their role and know what they're doing. I think live events would almost be a better option for NXT.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

I mean, but they do do live shows, they do more live shows.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

But I'm saying I'm saying more live events outside of Florida.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Oh, I see, I see.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

Like let them actually travel to do live shows so that they can get reactions from a crowd that doesn't typically see them.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

Because I I remember in 2004, the Road to WrestleMania tour, um, it was like a week before WrestleMania 20, and they came to Baltimore, and the main event was uh Michael's Benoit Triple H and they basically ran. The WrestleMania main event a week before WrestleMania, and it was a spectacular match, and they did a lot of the same spots in the match. I'm like, when when these WrestleMania matches aren't delivering, I think this is the reason why, because they're not running uh they're they're not running through the spots and they're not running through the matches ahead of time with these live events. So when these big shows come and then they're running through everything first time in front of a live audience, like it's it's not connecting.

SPEAKER_01 44:35

Right. I I think part of that is is like you said, if they do that in the live event, that can give them the opportunity to see this work, that didn't work, keep this, get rid of this, that kind of thing to make their mania match better. But then you also have the flip side of that of if we pretty much run through the same match, somebody's gonna record it now. And somebody's gonna say, Oh, this is the exact match they ran at Mania, and people are gonna complain about it.

SPEAKER_02 45:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

So it's a damn you do, damned if you don't.

SPEAKER_03 45:07

You know it's crazy. I was I last night I watched I don't even know what podcast it was probably from a taker podcast, but JBL was talk talking about um a spot him and Eddie would do in their matches. Like I must could have been leading up to live events, leading up to their match on SmackDown, but JBL was like Um we had this spot where he does like an arm drag, and I just go outside the ring, and I guess like during the because right before they went on, it was like Taker and Booker or something, and they like or Taker and somebody, and they had like a crazy match. And JBL and Eddie got to follow that. And I think it's what was on a thing was a smackdown, or it might have been pay-per-view or whatever. But they're doing that, they they have these spots down, and like JBL's telling Eddie, like, I need you to do this, like um, do the arm draw, do the spot, and Eddie's like, no, not yet. Like the crowd's getting like the crowd needed to go down a little bit, he said. Like, they were trying to work it to where the crowd was getting behind them, but the crowd was still go already like super pumped from the taker match, but they were letting the fans like not get bored, but still like trying to calm down before they did their spots. But they were like leading up to their match, they were working live events doing these same spots over and over again.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:27

But it's it's that's the emotional connection of things. You want them you kind of want to lull them down that way when you start to do these things, their energy picks back up and they're committed. It's hard with with you can't just go. I'll use AEW as the example. To me, part of why I don't I can't get as behind them is they're gonna be a spot-filled match, and then you start the next match, and it's immediately fast-paced, spot filled again. I'm like, I don't have enough time to come down to reinvest and coming back up.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

That's because they don't have any divas anymore.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

So what the heck, what the heck are Will Ospreay and Swerve and Hangman and Darby? Where are those guys practicing? They don't have live events at all.

SPEAKER_01 47:18

No. No, but a lot of those guys have their local facilities that they still work out in. Um, I know in like Darby's case, he quite often is still at the nightmare factory.

SPEAKER_00 47:33

Yeah, but there's no live crowd there.

SPEAKER_01 47:36

No, but it's still it's still a way to work through things. It's it's better than not working through it at all.

SPEAKER_02 47:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

Then you also have people on the roster that that uh you know work TV each week and then go wrestle a couple indies on the weekend. Not as much as they used to.

SPEAKER_00 47:55

That's the key, getting those reps in.

SPEAKER_01 47:58

Yeah. Like NJF, he he went on a little indie run here recently, and I I'm sure that's because he wanted to work on something to get it ready for TV. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:09

He actually didn't get to do his last match because he got hurt.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

And there's the downside of doing live events.

SPEAKER_03 48:18

He got hurt against the match uh with his roosh he just wrestled, and then he was supposed to wrestle at um the Wrestle Open promotion, whatever it is, and he got hurt, and they're like, Oh, sorry guys, MGF got hurt this past week, so he's not gonna be doing his match.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Yeah, which sucks. And and I get where like from the WWE standpoint of let's not do a whole bunch of live shows because we're paying these guys so much money and we don't want them to get hurt on a low money-making show. But them not getting the reps can also lead to them getting hurt, so it's like you have to find the medium somewhere. And I know like a lot of them go to the PC and work out and and do simulated matches there and all that kind of stuff, but that doesn't help them like you're talking about the editing, it doesn't help them learn how to play the crowd. Right. Which for the most part, I don't think WWE even cares about teaching them that anymore. Because it's so unless you're a big name like unl unless it's like a uh Cody vs. Roman type match, then odds are you're gonna go out there and you're gonna follow the script. You're not gonna have that leeway to like, okay, this isn't working, let me adjust mid-match. You need more like more freedom like uh like what Rock and Hogan had at that mania, where they got out there and within the first two minutes were like, yep, just scrap everything we planned and just wing it.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

I feel like as long as you have a catchy song and you have a catchphrase.

SPEAKER_01 50:11

Alright, so the whole premise of the song is it doesn't matter what you say in the song anymore, as long as you got a hot beat and a catchy hook.

SPEAKER_00 50:17

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

So they're just in there rambling, not even saying like real lyrics half the time. And then they go into the hot beat and the catchy hook, and they're like, see, that's all that matters. Same thing, doesn't matter what you do in between the ropes, as long as you got a good catchphrase and a uh nice theme song, the rest of work.

SPEAKER_03 50:36

Yeah. So we are going off topic a little bit. We we kind of went off topic.

SPEAKER_02 50:41

Yeah. We're on topic.

SPEAKER_03 50:45

Are we?

unknown 50:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:46

Slight deviation. Slight deviation, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:51

It still plays into the into the uh making a star and not allowing people to build themselves as a star.

SPEAKER_03 50:57

That is also we we okay, that makes sense, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 51:00

But I think that's all we got for you guys.

SPEAKER_03 51:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:05

We're gonna try and keep this simple, keep some topics, not go off too, not go off the track too much.

SPEAKER_00 51:13

Nice bits and pieces.

SPEAKER_01 51:15

You gotta you got a little bonus segment with the live events.

SPEAKER_00 51:18

That's all.

SPEAKER_01 51:19

Don't complain, Marks.

SPEAKER_00 51:23

But yeah, we're gonna wrap it up for this week. Appreciate you guys, as always. Those out there listening, if you made it to the end of the episode, Ryan's gonna mail you um a card from his personal collection.

SPEAKER_01 51:36

What? With a gold star on it.

SPEAKER_00 51:39

With a gold star on it.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:41

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

Just send your addresses to that's it. I wouldn't put an address out there. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 51:54

All right. So, Shay, Brooks, Ryan, Three Stage of Marks podcast. We'll catch you guys next week.

SPEAKER_01 52:04

Later, Marks.