Three Stages of Marks Wrestling Podcast
Three wrestling fans! Three friends! Three opinions! Lots of Chaos! Join us weekly for discussions about the sport that we all love professional wrestling.
Three Stages of Marks Wrestling Podcast
PPVs for Every Company and Character Reinvention
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In this week's episode we look back on a weekend packed with wrestling. WWE, NXT, AEW and TNA all ran major shows last Saturday and Sunday. The guys recap big moments from those four shows. Also, the guy's chat about characters and how important character reinvention is in wrestling.
Thank you for listening to our podcast!
What's up guys? Welcome back to the Three Stages of Marks podcast. This is episode twenty five.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_00Twenty twenty. Okay. Well, I do it every week. Like, I like don't know what the the freaking number is. But as always, I'm Shay. I'm here with Brooks and uh I'm here with Ryan. How you guys doing this week?
SPEAKER_03Doing phenomenal.
SPEAKER_01Doing.
SPEAKER_00Doing. Yeah. So so Brooks had uh uh a birthday weekend this past weekend, so he's kind of out of the loop on everything that happened for this uh big wrestling weekend. So we're gonna fill him in in this episode. So that's gonna be a big part of our episode this week, is trying to get him up to speed on what's going on in the wrestling world. But um, I think I'm gonna pass it over to Ryan. Uh, because Ryan wanted to cover just everything that happened this past weekend, right? Because go ahead.
SPEAKER_03Well, not everything, but we're gonna what stood out after this last weekend.
SPEAKER_00Right, but still, I mean, we had shows from WWE, we had NXT, we had AW, we had TNA, like everybody ran a show on the exact same weekend. So there's so much to cover, and I'm gonna let you uh take the reins and and take it away. Where you want to start?
SPEAKER_03We can start with uh slam aversary, because I think that happened, that did happen Sunday night, but we'll start with slamaversary. Um nothing too big coming out of out of TNA. They are trying to rebuild, which I like to see. They just um signed Apollo Cruz, and according to Brooks, Brooks would say um in our in our chat that more talent are coming over. I think Apollo Cruz is a nice pickup for TNA. I know I know uh as of right now, TNA is looking like a D-B light again with all these guys coming over, like Fabian Eichner just came over, um Elena Black just came over recently. It's like everyone that's on the TNA roster is in DW at some point in time.
SPEAKER_00Can I jump in?
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00So just quick reaction to Apollo being signed to TNA. I always feel like TNA likes to sign guys that are really solid workers, but they don't seem to sign people that can elevate the company anymore. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01I don't think they can afford to sign those names. See, and that's a problem, and that's a problem.
SPEAKER_00Because how are you going to make TNA uh uh a more viable company? Are they gonna continue on that same path that they've always been on? It's like they just kind of tread water to me.
SPEAKER_01But to be fair, when they had that spike right before um Damore left, there was other than what Moose was their biggest name. Like they they weren't bringing in anybody at that point that was gonna make or make a big dent in the business either, but they were still improving. Gotta have your your niche, I guess.
SPEAKER_03Um something uh something else that was was kind of kind of big. Um kinda. Zia Brookside won the TNA knockouts championship, which I wasn't expecting. I'm I'm hoping we start seeing like a stronger women's division in TNA. So they got the they just announced the uh knockouts TV championship, which I don't want I didn't want to see TNA bring in another title for Tanaka used, but I'm I'm not with companies bringing in more championships just to throw a title on somebody. The Hardys also won back the TNA tag titles, which talking about elevating the company, the Hardys were elevating the probably like still still a big name in the wrestling, the wrestling world. They're still getting, I guess, TNA out there, because I've always seen them doing like events or press release or something like that to get help get TNA out there, which is always good. Didn't think they needed to win the tag titles again, especially when they had um they added the Great Hands, which are young and upcoming tag teams still, which they haven't really been doing much in TNA. Didn't really need to see the hardest win the titles again. Um slam adversary didn't seem like slam adversary minus the the Ultimate X match they had, which brought back the um speaking of the Ultimate X, they're bringing back Destination X, which is really cool pay-per-view. For anyone who isn't familiar, it's pretty much a bunch of cruiserweights throughout the whole entire show, which will be pretty cool. Amazing red also is getting inducted into TNA Hall of Fame. Don't know how I feel about that. He hasn't been around in 15 years in TNA, so I'm not sure how I feel about Amazing Red going to TNA Hall of Fame.
SPEAKER_01How come? I mean, it makes sense to me. He was an original.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01He helped style on the map for them.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I saw the I saw the video package of that was great, and but the thing is they didn't Amazon Red wasn't in TNA that long, though, right? It was only in it for like a couple years.
SPEAKER_01Um he hasn't been around 15 of it. Yeah, but that's typically what you want for your your Hall of Famers, especially when TNA started their Hall of Fame kind of late.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01They've yeah, they want some of those earlier guys in.
SPEAKER_03Like, I mean, uh like give give Amazing Red his flowers, and for Kazarian to be the one to like after the match, like he was like giving Amazing Redis flowers, and I was like, I want you to just look at the look at the screen. And I don't I think I don't even think Amazing Red even knew, because I don't think they would do that segment and not or or or would tell him. So I'm assuming Amazing Red didn't even know himself.
SPEAKER_01Um amazingly enough, he only worked for TNA for four total years. Wow. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I mean, he still looks good, like he still looks pretty sharp. I mean, he's still wrestling.
SPEAKER_00Um so when you think about X Division, like original X Division from like 2002 on, who were the first names that come to mind when you think like originals?
SPEAKER_03AJ Styles, Samo, Joe, Christopher Daniels, Kazarian.
SPEAKER_00No, originals, originals. Joe, Joe was a little bit later.
SPEAKER_03Um I'm thinking like oh, so you're thinking about like early TNA, like early.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I still like still think of Daniels, Kaz, and AJ first. Yeah, I wouldn't put it Red and Elix Skipper.
SPEAKER_00Yes. See, a lot of people don't remember Elix Skipper or like Jerry Lynn. Um I mean, even like Chris Sabin was in the beginning. Alex Shelley. I mean, a lot of those guys probably won't go because they only induct one person per year. It's like you're never in the middle of the day.
SPEAKER_03Well, they've been they they've been inducting like two or three. I think last year they inducted like two or three people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because last year it was um the beautiful people and there was a male talent. I can't remember which male it was. Okay.
SPEAKER_00So maybe they'll add somebody else to it then.
SPEAKER_01Oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_00Okay. All right, well, that's cool.
SPEAKER_03But like I like I I'm not trying to knock them forward. Maybe they just maybe they could they didn't have anyone else. But since they're bringing amazing red back into the company, I'm not sure if they're bringing him back full time. But I mean, hell, give him his flowers, put him in the hall of fame. I would unl unless they just didn't have anyone else, which could be a thing, because I know they tried to get AJ Styles before for the Hall of Fame. Or who was it? Was it AJ Styles and he turned it down, or someone turned it down?
SPEAKER_00But I but I don't think that's the case that they didn't have anybody else. I think they genuinely wanted Amazing Red.
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah, they wanted to give him praise for I mean, he's influenced the modern wrestling style dramatically. And a lot of the you watch AEW and you can in nine times out of ten, you're gonna be like, yep, amazing red influenced that person. You can just tell by the way they wrestle.
SPEAKER_03Um by the way, last year was Mickey James and the beautiful people. Okay, so it was two females last year. Females all around. And then this year, so far, just to add to it, ODB is getting inducted this year, and then Amazing Red and Conan.
SPEAKER_01Oh with his with his new legs. Oh yeah. He's getting inducted, his legs aren't. Damn. Too soon.
SPEAKER_02Too soon.
SPEAKER_01Oh man. My bad, people.
SPEAKER_03My bad. Definitely wanted to touch one more thing with TNA. I think it looks like Santana possibly might be heading out. I'm not sure where his contract is looking like since he did. I didn't, I don't I didn't unless unless they're keeping him around, but I don't know why Santana would drop the world title to not leave. And then same thing with Leon Slater. I think they're both out the door coming to be. Um I think they will I think I do think Santana will be shown better from a DW product. I feel like when he was in on NXT a few times, he was he'd look like a like a bigger star in NXT. Then again, the NXT crowd shows make makes anyone look like a bigger star there.
SPEAKER_01Fantasy is expected to expire mid-July. Oh, so that's probably why he dropped the title or through a couple weeks from mid-July. Yeah, instead of putting him in a new story for two weeks of pre-recorded episodes.
SPEAKER_00Happy to happy to see him move over. Uh although I don't expect them to do much with him on a main roster level.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I kind of think they need to start actually signing people specifically to be NXT talent. They don't always have to come up to the main roster. You can keep them down there, they can be their star on the brand or whatever, and help develop the young guys.
SPEAKER_00But it feels like they're not looking at making NXT a larger commodity either.
SPEAKER_01I would say yes and no. I mean, the fact that they're they have them on an actual TV deal now, and they're doing more on the road. Speaking of which, they're coming to my local area uh end of the month. Or beginning of August, something like that.
SPEAKER_03And uh NXT?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they're gonna be so NXT is in in Petersburg like 45 minutes away on a Saturday. Oh, it's gonna be a live event.
SPEAKER_00I would definitely go to that if I gotta go.
SPEAKER_01And then Raw Raw's in Norfolk like 25 minutes away that Monday. You definitely gotta go.
SPEAKER_03You can't just not go thinking about it. Especially NXT. Especially NXT. Like I've been to some live events, man, and it though the NXT live events are really fun.
SPEAKER_00I'd go to NXT. I don't know about Raw looking at those ticket prices. Yeah, August 5th, August 5th.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Yeah. Um I'm really thinking about it.
SPEAKER_03Speaking of Didabee, we're gonna move over to the Knight of Champions side. And there was some things I didn't personally like with Oba Femi winning the King of the Ring tournament, especially now at as of this recording. We it's it's Tuesday after, it's the Tuesday after Raw, and we just saw Oba Femi will be taken will be facing Brock Lesnar in a hell in a cell match. It's like, well, where's Obas you know a title match? Now they could still swerve us by putting a title on Brock Lesnar somehow, but as of now, I'm not I I don't see how this is making any sense with and then Seth Rollins goes ahead and beats Braun Breaker. Listen, I'm the biggest probably Seth Rollins guy. I've always been a fan of Seth Rollins. I will tell you guys to put him over nine times out of ten, but this is the one time I wish Braun Breaker would have gone over Seth Rollins. Because now where does where does Braun Breaker go? He's gonna he's getting thrown back in the tag team title spot, according to Austin Theory. They're getting a tag title rematch next week against the Street Profits. So what Braun Breaker's taking the back seat when he should be the guy getting pushed just like Oba Femi.
SPEAKER_00So three three th three things. So so the word is that they took the tag titles off of Breaker and Theory because they wanted Braun to focus on his singles career and his ascension to the top. Well, I think this tag match is going to be closure for that. Um, and then we're gonna see what they're gonna do with him next. Second thing, Seth Rollins, as much as I respect Seth Rollins as a talent, I think he's great, he's amazing, he can cut a really good promo, all that stuff. I don't, however, like his booking, and I've never liked his booking. I feel like he does a really good job, or the company gives him a platform to get himself over really well, but rarely does he get other uh uh people over. And I'm speaking of younger guys, and not specifically Sam Braun in general, but I'm speaking just his historically. He's done a really bad job at getting younger guys over uh because of the way that he's booked. And the third thing is the Queen of the Ring and King of the Ring tournaments uh just just completely bogus. Like to have EO win the Queen of the Ring and then challenge the person that she just beat is just makes no sense to me.
SPEAKER_01That Liv was even I would say that's logical though. That's not that Liv was in the tournament at all, but logical that she chose Liv because she just beat her, then I'll be actually beat her, then I'm gonna beat her beat you again. Yeah, I mean, if that was the case, been in the tournament in the first place.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they literally did what they do on Raw every week. You beat the champion, you get a title shot. Like you didn't need a tournament for that. Right. And then with the Oba piece, um I think all around, I just don't like how they used King of the Ring to supposedly set up these title matches for SummerSlam, and then you have Oba choose not to uh go for the title, and then you had the champion in there trying to chase a second championship. I I don't know. I just didn't agree with the the setup of it all. It could have just been Queen and King of the Ring, give them a crown, put them on a throne, and let them wear a cape when they come out to the ring every week.
SPEAKER_01So allegedly WWE is claiming now the reason why Oba's not fighting for the title at SummerSlam is that they want to hold it off for uh the biggest moment possible. So mania next year. But again, just don't make the King of the Ring a uh tournament for a title match.
SPEAKER_00After they advertise the okay.
SPEAKER_01Alright.
SPEAKER_03Right. You done ranting, Shay?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm done.
SPEAKER_03No, I agree with literally everything you said. I don't know why because we're we don't even have a woman's champion on SmackDown right now. So they just made it like, oh, we'll just give EO Livem Morgan again. So we're gonna see that match again, and then there's gonna be no women's champion on SmackDown right now. So what's up with that?
SPEAKER_00Well, they don't defend the belts anyway, so we probably don't miss them.
SPEAKER_03So so um that's pretty much everything I wanted. Oh, you know what? I'll th I'll throw in some more Sami Zayn. Uh I was I was very mixed with Sami Zayn winning the championship. I know he's definitely has earned it. I wish it wasn't so late, but I'm I'm just so sick of this underdog sort of a Sami Zayn. It's like the underdog, the underdog, the underdog, and I understand he's so big in Saudi Arabia that he's those people love him. He's like their he's like their lord and savior there, because over in the States, everyone's just been sick and booing him. But honestly, happy for Sami Zayn. I don't think he's gonna have a really long reign. I did read somewhere that someone compared his title reign to like Darby Allen's world title reign that just happened, which I think is kind of funny.
SPEAKER_01Where it'll be a couple weeks, a couple weeks to a couple months long, get a couple defenses in and then drop it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Or it's gonna it's gonna be like um when Mick Foley won the title the first time. Uh I don't know.
SPEAKER_01As long as they don't do like the cane the first time where he won it, and then the very next night dropped it, that would be bad.
SPEAKER_00Yikes, yeah. So so this is gonna work for Sammy. Like, and and I'm happy that it finally happened. We can say that he got it and get it out of the way. It's not gonna be like Darby Allen, though. Like, we we're not putting Darby Allen, well, Darby Allen was up against guys that were like twice his size, and he was like beating these guys clean in these like random no rules matches and stuff like that. Putting Sami Zayn up against Jay Uso or Sami Zayn up against Cody, I mean they're literally like the same size, give or take, 10-15 pounds. So the matches are going to be a lot more fair uh with Sami Zayn versus the guys on SmackDown. There are no really big super heavyweights on SmackDown.
SPEAKER_01I'm just happy they had him win the title now and didn't wait till Mania insalty to just get it out of the way. Also, it was very nice of him to wish Cody a happy birthday today with a picture of him sitting with the title. I mean, like I kind of think if he goes like full-blown heel, this will work fairly well. But right now he's still kind of uh in the middle to me. We'll see how that goes.
SPEAKER_00I I like and I like wrestlers that are kind of in the middle, right? Because every wrestler has good days and bad days, so if you just go with however you're feeling on that day, you know, you wind up being very, very human.
SPEAKER_01But he also can play a really good chicken shit heel.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So like I feel like there's too many tweeners and you kinda need those different types of heels every once in a while.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you kind of need a clear cut. Yeah, good guy, bad guy, dynamic. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And obviously if he's going against Cody, like right now, Jay's still a tweener, leaning towards a heel all of a sudden, but he's like he's a tweener at this point. You know Cody's the the you know, white meat baby face, that's not changing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well super Cody. I guess you can't call him Super Cody when he actually does drop the belt from time to time. But then again, I guess he also dropped the belt from time to time.
SPEAKER_00So you know what? Sorry, I'm gonna jump in one more time, Ryan. So I keep I keep seeing these posts on Facebook about uh John Moxley, and I don't know where they came from, but all these people keep saying, oh, he needs to come home, he's in a terrible spot, and AW, Roman, and Seth are the top two guys in the company, they're fighting for the title, and Mox has like a mid-card title.
SPEAKER_01And I'm like, okay, way to pick like one moment in time to because Mox isn't I don't like obviously he enjoys being world champion, but it's he's like, I can give back to the company by not being in the world title picture.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But I mean, are we forgetting that he was champion for like ever?
SPEAKER_01And isn't he like doesn't he have the most title reigns for them?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he's got like four, he's like a four-time world champion. He's the current continental title he's got, right? Or the international title. Which one? He's got one of them. He's got one of the titles. Yeah, well, I don't know which one it is. Well, we could talk about Forbidden Door. I was gonna talk about a bash, but we can talk about Forbidden Door since we want to bring up AEW a little bit. Um, the Continental Championship he's got. I listen, uh, I think Forbidden Door is a solid pay-per-view. I I really hate that AEW heavily got put over. This is my biggest this is my biggest thing about these Forbidden Door shows that AEW heavily gets put over. It's never it's never like a flip-flop between like um AEW and whatever, like the show they were collabing with CMLL and New Japan. New Japan got featured on the on the show, but it's like the uh I think New Japan won two of their matches, like Drilla Maloney defeated Daniel Garcia in the pre-show, which I don't even want to count that match, but on the main card, everyone or like PAC lost to uh Shoda, and he's the IWGP global heavyweight champion. I don't like that AEW just puts I understand it's the AEW show, but it would have been nice to see like Zack Sabre Jr. beat Kenny Omega on that show.
SPEAKER_01But we've talked about it before, AEW is not doing anything to help New Japan whatsoever.
SPEAKER_03And and this was an issue with TNA. I I forgot who talked about it, but during COVID, when Kenny Omega was TNA champion, they did nothing to help TNA. Like if anything, it was if anything, it was like the end of that little partnership they had where Christian was world. Champion defending the TNA title against or taking the title off a off of Kenny Omega was probably the best thing they could have done for TNA. And I don't even know. I don't even like like I do praise Katoni Khan in ways, but I whoever's idea it was that to put a world title on Kenny Omega during that time probably killed a lot of their momentum during the COVID era.
SPEAKER_00Is New Japan still trying to break in the US, like run shows and stuff?
SPEAKER_03Every once in a while they run shows in DC, right? I don't I forgot what show it was.
SPEAKER_00They that was a while ago. I don't know if they still do. Yeah. Because I was like, I can understand them doing this partnership to get their people in front of the US audience. But I mean, the people who know the New Japan wrestlers like know who they are. Like, I don't think there's a exposure issue with New Japan wrestlers in AW because most of them know who are showing up, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I don't know if I don't know if we can say it's New Japan just wanting the exposure for their their men and women, because I just don't think that's the case anymore.
SPEAKER_03And another thing, this shouldn't, like they should have definitely re-like I understand there was some injuries, apparently. That's why they had to do such and such. But looking on looking at the Forbidden Door card, there is there was even including pre-show, there was 12 matches. Including the pre-show, there's 12 matches. And I think there was like four matches that was like an actual forbidden door match. Yeah, because people like we had offspring and sword stricken in the main event. No one it was just AEW representing that match. Even in the 12-man match, the cage, which mind you, the that cage is really cool. I liked how they did like a circular cage that made it look unique and different. That's all I gotta say. But there was not a single guy from CMLL or New Japan in that match. I understand it was team uh team Don Callos, MJF versus Team Briscoe, and there's not a single guy from representing any other promotion. And then same thing with the women's um Owen Hart Cup finals. Just not a lot of like represent representation for New Japan and CMLL. They could have they could have definitely um pushed those Owen Hart Cup matches to I think the next pay-per-view. I forgot what the next pay per view is called. Is that right, like redemption or something? They got like another they got like another pay-per-view coming up called Redemption or something.
SPEAKER_00It's like who's being redeemed?
SPEAKER_03I don't know. Redemption, there we go. That's Sunday, July 26th. Oh, that's the end of July, and then they got all in a month later. They could have definitely done it at redemption. Those I don't know, in my opinion. But Forbidden Door has always been like a collab show. And I think this year would just they just didn't do much collabing.
SPEAKER_01A little bit here and there, but what does New Japan have to offer at this point when AEW just keeps taking their talent?
SPEAKER_03Exactly, but still they they've could have had I don't know. Listen, I'm not the booker. Still a good show. That uh they called it Death's Door. Yeah, the six on six. There were some cool spots in that match. Like I guess Kevin Knight literally got blown up. I'm not sure if you guys saw that. He was opening up Darby, or was it someone's backpack that was on the top of the cage, and Kevin Knight opened it up and it just blew up and he fell and went through like five tables or whatever. And then the whole spot of Leo Rush taken out the whole entire Don Callis. Well, took it took them all out, which was kind of funny. Um Will Osprey and Swerve, they put on a nice little clinic. I do like that we're getting uh Osprey getting his world title match at all in. Is it was it's gonna be in Web Web uh Jeez, Wembley. That'll be that'll be nice. I now it's either do we see Kenny Omega? Because I know Kenny Omega wanted to go for the world title, so do we see Kenny Omega versus Osprey or MJF vs. Osprey? I don't know what the bigger match would even be. It's gonna be MGF.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and I I think Osprey is gonna have a pretty long title reign, so they'll probably they'll probably double back and and hit all the big names.
SPEAKER_03As long as he doesn't fill in Brooks, uh Jay White did return, which is really cool. It's been such a long time that we saw Jay White. I did see the clip of that. And I'm I'm happy they kept the bang bang gang together still with with uh Ace Austin in it and Juice, the guns. It's cool. It's cooler I'm seeing them feud with the dogs because the dogs and the bang bang gang were all bullet club. Well, I guess I would not OG Bullet Club. Maybe Juice and Jay White might be like the OG out of all those people, even though they're really not OG. But I don't and then there was a Gabe Kidd. I don't know if he's part of the dogs or if he's part of the Death Riders right now. Gabe Kidd, I was supposed to be at um Forbidden Door, but due to like Visa issues or something like that, Gabe Kidd was just in Japan. He was just apparently he was he's back from his injury that he suffered a couple months ago. Um then Moxley had a nice little match with Bandito. Speaking of Moxley, I don't I don't know why people would even talk bad about Moxley like that. He's been he carried AEW for so long. He's literally like their poster child. Definitely want to shout out, not shout out, but if you guys haven't seen it, or Brooks, if you haven't yet, watched the Mercedes Monet and Maya World match. Apparently, people I don't know. If you think about it, people have been saying it's probably one of the best of women's matches in AEW. Yeah, that's not a big Mercedes Monet fan. I'm not a big Mercedes-Monet fan, but I've heard the same thing.
SPEAKER_01I just I can't get through a Mercedes Monet Sasha's.
SPEAKER_03I understand. And then hitting the last leg of this crazy wrestling weekend, we had the great American Bash over in NXT. Um they opened the show with Tony D defeating Naraku. Uh I feel like there's just not any big names in NXT right now, so I could I didn't really care for this whole entire card. It saw Kendall Gray winning the NXT Women's Championship. I might have to be a Kendall Gray fan. I told you last week. I told you last week. She's she's gonna be up there. I and listen, I don't I don't doubt it. I might have to actually start watching her matches. I might have to be invested in Kendall Gray. Um, I didn't think Lola Vice is gonna drop the women's title this soon.
SPEAKER_01Um she's she's probably they're probably prepping her to get called up, so she'll probably be full-time on the main roster by the rumble at the latest.
SPEAKER_03And then the downfall of Dark State is continuing. Sayquan beat Dion, but I think they're still gonna be feuding. Um Saequan was I uh before even Dark State, I saw Saquon a few times when I was going to NXT uh beginning last year when he first got signed to the B. He was doing like some dark matches and stuff, and everyone was super big on Saequan sugar because I don't know where he came from. I guess he is an indie guy apparently. So can't they keep on? I forgot who it is. I think Dion Lennox like throwing that out like on TV saying he's just an indie guy. So I don't know where he came from. I do think Saequan's got the talent to be like a bigger star in NXT um once he once he develops a bit more. But it was it was a solid weekend all around, even though I have my bits I'm gonna poke at. We can go into uh Shay's topic here if we if anyone else has anything to chime in on. If not, we can go into Shay's old topic.
SPEAKER_01Uh so Sugars started in 2018 on the Indies. Got trained by Cal Conley and George South. George South can make a talent, can't he? He ain't worth a damn himself in the ring, but he can make other people worth it. He also apparently worked Sugars worked uh elevation back in 2022 against Kaz.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I like Saquon a lot. I think he is the standout from Dark State, even though they gave Dion uh I guess the lead role, because I think Dion's a lot more imposing, right? Plus, he already I mean he's been in the NXT system for the longest, so it makes sense that they gave it to him. But Saquon is definitely the standout from a character perspective. Uh work rate is stronger. I just think he's more marketable from the the quad. And then what's the uh what's the former wrestler, college wrestler? What's his name? I can't remember his name right now. The one dark state?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, oh colored, yeah. Oh my god, that guy.
SPEAKER_00So they have him on Evolve like fairly regularly, uh working matches. So he's getting his version. Wait, even right now? Yes.
SPEAKER_03Even working dark, even working NXT on as dark state, and still wow.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he's in a match uh this upcoming week.
SPEAKER_02Hmm.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And then there's a guy down in Evolve, and I can't remember his name. Uh, but he has like this like old this old style uh beard, but I can't remember his name. Hold on, let me look, let me look him up real quick. I think he's gonna be uh a pretty big deal when he comes up to the main roster. Uh Harlem Lewis.
SPEAKER_03He's like a that's um that's Tia Hale's boyfriend.
SPEAKER_00Is it okay? Yeah, was definitely a standout on Evolve. So I expect that he'll be coming up to NXT soon.
SPEAKER_03Um before we go into your topic, though, Shay, I just loaded up Facebook and posted two minutes ago, was confirmed that Mike Santana has finished up with TNA and his contract expires in a couple days. Just to throw that out there. So Mike Santana might be NXT bound before we even know it.
SPEAKER_01Also, about an hour ago, uh posted that Big Bill has put in his notice with AEW, told him he was not.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I didn't say he's oh Lord, he'll be back in W for a year.
SPEAKER_02And and Baron Corbin. And Baron Corbin, apparently.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they'll be they'll be employed for a year, then they'll be out the door again.
SPEAKER_01Hey, if Enzo sells some merch, TK will keep him around. Oh, dude.
SPEAKER_00Okay, well I want to talk about uh character development and wrestlers that have been in companies for a considerable amount of time, let's say 10 years or so, and how we can look back on those characters and how they may have changed over time. Like, how do wrestlers reinvent themselves? Uh, what's a good example of a wrestler that reinvented themselves? And wondering why some wrestlers choose not to reinvent themselves. And this is coming from our conversation about X Pac last week when we were talking about X Pac Heat and why people hated him so much, and they told him to go away. X Pac sucks. Because I was watching Invasion and it was Billy Kidman versus X Pac, and there was a promo where Billy Kidman was saying, uh, you know, I'm gonna show everybody why they say X-Pac sucks. And I was like, Man, I really went down a rabbit hole on X Pac. Like, what was the reason that people hated him so much? And I'm like, when he left the WWF, he was only like 31, 32 years old.
SPEAKER_03Wow, that's young.
SPEAKER_00Yes, now we have guys who were in their mid-40s, their world champion, that's another 15 years. So he was like crazy young when he left WWF, and his career uh ended very early, in my opinion. But if you look at him when he debuted as the kid, Lightning Kid, whatever his name was, back in the early 90s, and then you look at him in uh 2002, 2003 when he left, he was the exact same wrestler, same moves, same demeanor, everything. He didn't he didn't add anything new to his repertoire, everything was exactly the same. And I'm like, man, maybe that's why people were just bored of seeing the same thing.
SPEAKER_01Do we Xbox case though? He went from like the one, two, three kid, you know, the uh underdog white meat baby face to Xbox. That was a dramatic change. Uh but then once he changed to Xbox, I guess, yeah. He didn't really change at all after that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, it was a change in the way that he appeared, but in ring, everything was the same.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I could say Seth has been the same in ring worker for the last 10 years.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean, it's Jericho changed his uh his gimmick over and over again, but other than adding a move every once in a while, he wrestled the same.
SPEAKER_00Right. So so what do you think it really comes down to? It comes down to presentation?
SPEAKER_01I think it comes down to being aware of when people are getting tired of you and tweaking to make them not be tired of you. So like Jericho does enough in his gimmick changes for people to reinvest.
SPEAKER_03So before before we started recording, I did write down some names for character development. Jericho was number one. I always think Jericho is probably at the probably the king of reinventing himself. And because he's done it so many times. He's always found that gimmick or whatever he's gotta do to like because he knows, like he's been around for he's been around for almost 40 years at this point, because it's been about 35, 36 years he's been around the wrestling business. I don't know if I'm exact, but he's been around for a good while, so he knows if he's gonna change his change his stick his stick up and it works. Like between doing the list of Jericho and and the lion heart Chris Jericho and all this other stuff, like he makes it work.
SPEAKER_01But not the learning tree. Not the learning tree. He he started his career in 1990. So yeah, he's 36 years in. Wow. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Always think of always think of JBL as like the perfect example of how you reinvent your character.
SPEAKER_03Oh, when he turned on Farouk and he became that million-dollar cowboy guy and was just being a good heel, by the way.
SPEAKER_00Because he's one of those wrestlers where no matter what they did with him, if they kept him in that Bradshaw look, he was never gonna elevate. He was always gonna be looked at as the guy from APA. But when you completely change your look and your gimmick and you commit to it, like good things like that happen.
SPEAKER_01But he's also one that got really lucky well before that. Because like his his Justin Hawk branch all did not work. The the what was he, part of the new blackjacks? Yeah, did not work.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then one day they were getting ready to cut him, and they were like, How about you and Farouk just do what you do backstage and go out there and drink beer and they're like, Yep, deal. And that worked. But like he JBL's talked many times about how if it weren't for some producer backstage being like, Yeah, why don't y'all just do that out there? Then he was getting cut.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And and that's that happens a lot more frequently than we know because there'll be some things that you think that might work and they don't work, or some things that just get thrown together, and there it's like the best thing that's happened.
SPEAKER_01Yep. That's like Cena's thing about you know rapping on the bus and Stephanie seeing it, and like, yep, do that out there.
SPEAKER_03And he don't because he he even talked about it, he's almost gotten fired. He was about to get fired. Yep. And besides besides even our truth being like the rapper, the only rapper in WWE at that time, then Cena started doing it and it he blew up.
SPEAKER_00I often wonder what would have happened with uh R Truth if invasion didn't happen.
SPEAKER_03Whoa, that's a crazy question.
SPEAKER_00Like a lot of like a lot of the guys that were at the lower end of the card, like what would have happened with them if WCW didn't die? Who knows? That that could be a whole conversation for a whole nother episode, but just random thought that just like came to my head.
SPEAKER_03I don't even think I don't even think TNA would have happened.
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_03A lot of guys a lot of definitely would have happened. But a lot of guys went to TNA.
SPEAKER_01Truth probably would have ended up in WCW, to be fair, because he was um Jackie Crockett was the one that discovered him and got him into NWA. So he was working in that circle already. And then apparently he at some point I think the story went that he I want to say he met Flair. I think that was the he met Flair at some show, some NWA show. And they were like, or he was like, Can you get me into WCW? And he's like, No, but I can get you into WWF.
SPEAKER_00That's crazy.
SPEAKER_01He's like, no, you need to go over there.
SPEAKER_00So that's I guess Flair saw the writings on the wall, huh?
unknownYep.
SPEAKER_00Who else is on your list?
SPEAKER_03Um, well, we we I that I did throw a Cena there. We already talked about Cena. Um a name I threw on this list is Big Show because not that he has much character development ever, but I don't know how he's been around in the business so long and him pretty much keeping the same character. He's just been the big guy who just goes out there and does a couple moves, but he's never really had like that set thing. I just I threw Biggs from this list because he's been has like he's had a dull character. I mean he's just a he's a he was just like an Andre the Giant, a modern day Andre the Giant.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, an attraction.
SPEAKER_03But yeah, exactly, he's an attraction, but it you know, he's uh that's literally his character. He's an attraction.
SPEAKER_00He never got Xbox heat.
SPEAKER_03No, and that man has been heel more times than I can count. He's been heel face more times, I think, than anyone in wrestling.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, technically, there was that time period where they kept chanting please retire. Oh yeah. Wait, when? That was I can remember something there was something going on with the New Day and Seamus and Cesaro, and I think Big Show like knocked out one of the New Day members, helped Seamus and Cesaro, and then for like, I don't know, like a year straight, fans are tuning, please retire to him. There's there's obviously plenty of examples of character development, like Triple H going from the blue blood to the degenerate saved his career.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01Uh you could look at failed gimmicks for people, Kane being a great example. Um Stone Cold from the Ringmaster to Stone Cold. The Rock from the Blue Chipper to The Rock. Uh Wyatt.
SPEAKER_03I like how you just named every single person on my list.
SPEAKER_01You literally just named every I'm like, hey, I don't have a I don't have a topic this week, so I gotta contribute somehow. Yeah, Wyatt and Foley to me both prime examples of of you know changing it up when you need to. Foley, it was just lucky he had three three gimmicks and then himself that all got over. Uh Roman. Yeah, Roman going from the big dog, people like don't care about him, don't want him on the screen to the tribal chief. And obviously that worked.
SPEAKER_03That that um I just that's that was Paul Heyman's idea calling him the tribal chief. Because he wanted Yeah. Um Paul Heyman just talked about it on talked about it with the that really two-hour long podcast with uh Chris Van Vliet. Good good listen to you, by the way. Paul Heyman talked about a lot of shit. But Paul Heyman was the like the mastermind be behind like the tribal chief and this and that and went to some depth depth. Like Vince was never like big on like a lot of Paul Heyman ideas, it feels like. After listening to that podcast, he Paul Heyman was the goat. For real.
SPEAKER_01I mean, for him to take that ragtag bunch in ECW and get them all over, then obviously he was doing something right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I mean, Paul Heyman saw something in CM Punk that Vince didn't, or no one else did. Paul Heyman saw stuff in a lot of people that Vince didn't didn't.
SPEAKER_01I think was it in that interview he also talked about getting paired up with Brock?
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01It was supposed to be was supposed to be Benoit, right? Yeah, he was supposed to be with Benoit, and somebody was like, or Paul, you need to save Brock because they were gonna make him some sort of gimmick. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then he he was like, give me a night with Brock, and that was the debut where he went out there and just tore the people up. And Vince was like, Alright, he's yours now. Keep him going.
SPEAKER_03Hey, something just happened for the best. Like that right there, because I don't think you could have had any a better duo than Paul Heyman and a Brock Lesnar.
SPEAKER_01Hey, Paul, say something stupid.
SPEAKER_03And apparently a lot uh Paul didn't want to know what Brock was gonna say ever during his promos. Paul Heyman wanted to go out there with a genuine reaction to everything that Brock would ever say on the mic.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think he he's that way about most things. He prefers to just not know. I mean, it's good if you want to make things feel real, that's the way to do it.
SPEAKER_00That's true. That is true.
SPEAKER_01But also, like Paul's smart enough and been in the business long enough that it doesn't matter what somebody else says, he's gonna be able to play off of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he's good at he's good at that too. Just kind of working on the fly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's like the what was it, his Hall of Fame induction when we were there and the the crowd chaining, you deserve it, and him just pausing mid-speech. You goddamn right I did. It's like he knew he's like, That's gonna get a pop. That's gonna keep the crowd in it, and he's like, and then I'll move on.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he he he his his Hall of Fame induction speech was just like the whole thing was a nice vibe, and being there live was really cool too. I don't think anyone will ever top his Hall of Fame speech, especially it being in Philly. That was that was the cake, the icing on the cake for me. I don't really he'll Billy Jim.
SPEAKER_01Hill Billy Jim's uh Hall of Fame speech was I don't know if I think that was only like it he went on and on and on, and it was boring as fuck, and the people were smoking. It was a joke. Or like Mr. T talking about his mama for an hour.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Alright. Anything else, Ryan? Before we wrap it up.
SPEAKER_03Uh no.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, good. All right, Brooks, anything else? Uh no. Yeah, all right. We're good to go then. All right, appreciate you guys for hanging in there with us for another episode here. Uh, on behalf of all the guys, myself, Ryan Brooks. This is the Three Stages of the Marks podcast. We'll see you guys next week. Peace.
SPEAKER_01Later, Marks.
